In episode six of the eight part mini-series on Self-Regulation Skillset training, Brad Chapin shares an exciting outcome of his Self-Regulation Skillset training presentation at a teacher’s conference in New York City. This conversation highlights skill 5, the importance of understanding and expressing emotions, with insights into how upbringing influences emotional responses. Participants share personal experiences and strategies for managing emotions, such as creative outlets and social communication. The dialogue also touches on societal norms regarding gender and emotional expression, emphasizing the need for open dialogue to combat shame and embarrassment. The session concludes with a reflection on the role of beliefs in shaping emotional responses, setting the stage for further exploration in cognitive therapy. This engaging exchange offers valuable perspectives on emotional intelligence and personal growth.
Introduction to Skill 5: A Healthy Expression of Emotions
Brad | Public Health Care Director:
We’re going stairway, and I was going my way, and there’s just a lot of sessions here. I mean, there’s probably 40 speakers, presenters, keynoters, and some big names in education. It’s busy, there’s I think 1500 people in attendance here, but it’s a really good lineup of different topics. But we plan to maybe have lunch tomorrow. They said they’re going to miss out tonight. I said, go ahead. I think they’re going to Moulin Rouge or one of the shows. I said, yeah, go do New York. Nice. We’ll catch up tomorrow. I said, we’ll just do a private lunch session tomorrow.
Jenny | Geophysicist:
That’s fantastic. Right on. I’m glad. Yeah, I really want to help her get this through the education system. It needs to be, and it’s well received when we’ve spoken to people. This has been the course that has had the most uptake so far. By the way, it’s going to be a part of this broader governance program that I’m building, and that will be a piece of, starting with that and then moving into community governance and then land governance and finally spiritual governance.
Brad:
Awesome.
Jenny:
That’s the idea of my piece that I think I can own in this is trying to loop it all together.
Brad:
I love that. Yeah, good. For right now, I’m just kind of enjoying, one thing I wish we would’ve done, and I might try to do this with the next group, is collected a little bit of data upfront, maybe a questionnaire to,
Jenny:
Oh, good idea.
Brad:
Say, where were you when we started this? And then compared to where you are at the end.
Jenny:
You raise a really important thing. I’ve been talking about, it’s just a simple example. My old bootcamp coach, he was very good at knowing how to keep everybody challenged. Meaning whether somebody was an expert like Amy versus somebody who’s brand new to this, like Jenny, they all feel like they’re contributing in a way that’s meaningful for them.
Brad:
You’re right.
Jenny:
Had we done that first, we could have had a sense, and then I could have paired people almost more skill, less skill
Brad:
True.
Jenny:
And then also if two experts wanted to talk together, there could have been opportunities to do that more thoughtfully. Yeah. Hi, Tami. How are you?
Tami:
I’m good.
Jenny:
Thank you, Tami, me and Tami have spent much time together. So much.
Brad:
I guess I’m an hour ahead of what I normally am. I’m on East Coast time this time, that was something I had to remember.
Jenny:
Brad’s in New York City, in Times Square, and he’s staying in the same hotel that I stayed in 2001, Marriott Marquee. Yeah. It’s funny. He showed his window and I was like, what hotel are you staying at? And then, wait, that’s probably not appropriate. But we weren’t recording and now I’ve said it. I won’t use that, Brad. That’s okay. You’ll have been and gone. It won’t matter.
Brad:
It’s a great view. Yeah, it’s a great location. If you ever get here, this is just essentially located as you can get on Broadway. I mean, you walk out the door in Hamilton, Richard Rogers theater’s right here, and Lion King’s right across the street and you want to see a show, you can’t hardly beat it. And they do a great job because they get the teachers, they block this off. They got a great deal because teachers couldn’t afford to come to New York, they locked in some low rates during COVID, and we’re at a conference for educators, but it’s pretty awesome.
Jenny:
Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s so cool.
Brad:
Wow. Here comes some people.
Jenny:
Hi everybody. I’ll get the room set up once we get going here, but I guess we can get started. Brad, why don’t you take it away.
Brad:
Yeah, good to see everyone. I was just telling Jenny, I think you started something here with this at this conference. I got here and talked a little bit about what we were doing meeting weekly and practicing skills together and developing this community of support around a pathway of skills that we have in common and applying it to some of the challenges that we have in our lives and supporting each other. I really appreciated that feedback last time, just about the cohesion of the group. I think that’s something that I should have probably talked more about and probably should have incorporated more. I wrote this as a self-regulation journey, but I’m really seeing the benefits of the group as far as the practice and support and ideas and learning from other people and the validation and some of the other pieces that come along with that.
Thank you for that feedback. I’m learning too as we go through this. They gave everyone here at this conference a copy of this book, 1500 of these went out to people from all over the country, and world, and I told ‘em what we were doing, and then they made this slide. They’re going to put it up on the big projector in front of everyone. I’ll be starting another book study for anyone that was here and got the book starting in March. They’ll be doing the same thing that we’re doing here with another group of people. Just super exciting. Thank you so much everybody for this journey and coming along and trying it out and also being very open-minded about this is a first time try for this. I’m just going to jump right in, Jenny, if you think, and I’ll just, we’re up on skill five here. Expression, I think that that skill we covered last week, the ownership piece, I did want to, before we go into skill five, did anybody have any questions or issues? That’s just so sticky, anybody catch themselves? I do want to reflect a little bit on that. Did things make me upset? We spend one week on that skill, but it’s such a big piece of this. Anybody have any thoughts about that to share with the group?
Jenny:
Yeah, I think it was, I noticed myself being able to think about this in an incident that happened to me this week. I don’t know if this is true, Brad, and maybe you can validate this, but I was told by a sports expert, these were her words. What drives us is fear, but if they really narrow it down, it’s fear of embarrassment. This was the lesson she gave. I don’t know, you can correct me or not if that’s real, but why I say that is, I had put something out on social media that was quite popular, got a lot of attention. It wasn’t me, but it was somebody speaking for me.
Somebody came and put a comment to something else I did, and it’s said, the veracity of what you’re saying and the way you excluded people, and this other conversation shows that nothing about what you’re doing and dah, dah, dah. It went on like that. I right away was like, okay, now I’m dysregulated. I knew it. And then the thing I was asking myself is I was surprised at how high. Again, I went through this, I how high, and I was like, yeah, I’m ready. I could tell I was ready to fire it back. I was wanting to just go, well, actually, but instead I was like, thank you for your concern. I’ll DM you about this. Then I sent him a note and said, “Hey, how can I help? What’s going on?” Anyway, then I didn’t read. To your point about being able to be effective.
He sent me a note back and all I read was, if you want to know more, read this 20 page document. And I was like, I can’t do that. And then he said, I just gave you three reasons for what you did wrong. Then I looked and he had given me three reasons, then I had to slow down and try. I just noticed how much I wasn’t able to act. I finally did what you advised in the first place, which was, I need to take a break. I was at an eight, I needed to just walk away from it. I stopped engaging with him entirely. And then I actually had, I’m sorry to go on about this. I hope it’s okay to use this example, but I actually had a meeting with somebody who’s working with me, and I said, do you know the name of his journalism? And he goes, yeah, I do. And I said, oh, great. And he goes, it’s really good stuff. I was actually thinking you should be working with this guy. I laughed and I told him the thing, and then I said, I’m sure he has. I’ve heard him speak, I’ve met him. He knows what he’s talking about. I know I need to talk to him, can you please just help me, help him? He’s going to help me try and engage with this guy. It’s all great, but I was able to use it and really think about it and I can see, I hope this is the goal, how you can start doing that in real time. And that’s the self-talk that you taught that you’re teaching us.
Brad:
Okay.
Jenny:
That was long-winded. Thank you.
Brad:
Yeah, remember when we talked about skill development, exposure, then there’s development, then there’s practice and it takes time. And we sometimes work with kids on this and they’ll say, yeah, I really did a good job calming down after I smacked so-so in the face. And it’s like, you got to be careful. You want to say, that’s great. Good job. Now we just want to get that safe and calm before you swing at somebody. It’s a good job on the skills. It’s just timing now. And that’s what we see with skill progression. You’re describing it. It’s not like it’s easy to talk about here, right? Because we’re not upset. We’re talking about things that aren’t fresh. It’s not real time right now. It’s reflective, but that’s also how you learn skills. We can’t learn in those heat of the moment moments. It’s not a teachable moment.
We have to practice when we’re not upset to be able to apply when we need it in the moment of upset. Nice job of explaining that. I also wondered if anybody just reflecting on that ownership piece, if anybody was able to do anything with that dial, remember I used the analogy of who’s got their hand on the dial if where a seven or an eight, and if we were able to think about intensity and duration and who really controls that intensity and duration of those emotions that we have. I hope that you’re seeing this as a progression. We’ve already covered fight or flight system activation, and then how to turn that dial down biological dial. Then we’ve talked about labelling these feelings. Last time we worked on this ownership piece of can things really make me, I have the final say about how angry or how sad or how scared I want to be about this.
Brad:
And then now we’re getting into this fifth skill, which is, okay, this emotional stuff, it’s energy, it’s going to go somewhere, it’s got to be directed, and you can be intentional about that. And that’s our goal with self-regulation is to be intentional with our skills, to take some conscious steps to do something with this and not be super passive about it. Because if we allow that to be our default, sometimes we develop skills that aren’t healthy in that area. Hopefully key points, what I’ve been doing every week are key points I want to point out with this skill, but key points are stuffing feelings is not a healthy skill. That’s the first one that we often have to do, and this is something I want y’all to think about and talk about in your breakout groups. I know I say this about halfway through or a third of the way through the chapter, but where did we learn this?
This is one of those things that I think it’s interesting to reflect on your upbringing about what was anger like in my home as a kid? What was sadness? What was fear? Were they even talked about? Were they even acknowledged as different things? And this is something I think that’s really unique, and you talk about skill development. If we haven’t had exposure to this stuff, there’s households where, hey, we don’t get angry here. We don’t do this. We don’t talk about that. We’re not going to be upset. How does a person coming from that have any idea what to do when they feel angry or sad or scared? This can really hit on some, I think this one in particular really hits on some things that are learned behaviors from our upbringing and models that we had in our life when we were younger about what to do with this energy.
That’s a key point. Stuffing is not, it’s going to come out. The other thing is I do see people, and this is a common pattern. I just stuff it, stuff it stuff. I only have so much capacity to hold that and then it comes. It’s a really predictable cycle of holding it in and then it comes busting out on the poor, unsuspecting, next person that’s in front of me when I’m up to here and it comes busting out. Those are patterns that we want to look for. I also think it’s really interesting when we do this in the adult group when we’re face-to-face, I’ve got people up in groups and we’ve got happy, sad, angry, and scared down one side of the page, and then we put healthy and unhealthy at the top and draw a line between the two.
And the group’s job is to determine what are healthy ways to express sadness and what are unhealthy ways that we sometimes express sadness? What are healthy ways to express fear and sometimes unhealthy ways that we do that and go down the list. I think that’s an important exercise, and you might think about that in your breakout groups. Those were the points that I wanted to make. And I do think these questions, these reflection questions in this section are really good to talk about in your breakout groups. They guide exactly where I think you want to go here. And I did talk about patterns of healthy and patterns of unhealthy and also being proactive versus reactive. How can I let them, I feel like this is one where a visual might be a release valve letting pressure out here with expression, but I’m curious in your groups, talk about what works for you. What have you learned over the years? Sometimes our expression is connected to our creative outlets, our hobbies, our areas of interest. We see that a lot. If it’s connection to nature or higher power or you’re a real social person or you are a writer, those are things I want us to talk about in the breakout groups and how that helps. Any questions before we split up? Okay, I’m ready to go.
Jenny:
I’m going to go ahead and open the room. About 20 minutes then?
Brad:
Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny:
Thank you. Good luck, everyone.
Break Out Session with Nature Lover, Teacher, and Support Staff (text only)
Brad:
I never know if I’m supposed to click something or does she automatically put us somewhere? I guess she just, we don’t have to do anything. Okay.
Nature lover:
Yeah, it looks different when we’re in a breakout room with you, Brad. I feel like the other one, the screen goes out and then it goes back on.
Brad:
Okay. Well, we are all in quadrants. Is that how it looks here or No. Okay. Okay. Well, what do you think of Skill five here? Expression, who wants to go through it?
Nature lover:
I thought it was really interesting that you asked about our upbringing, because it was like, “Oh, I never really thought about it”. My dad definitely would have angry outbursts, yelling or get in a fight, and my mom would have tears and as children, if we were crying or really upset, we were sent to our rooms without any tools of how to deal with it. Right?
Brad:
Yeah. Yeah. Think about that pattern for a second. I think that’s common. I’m glad that you brought that up. You think about seeing what you saw there in the adults, and then you have this emotional response, this energy, and then you are sent somewhere to do what really with no direction. And I think 5, 6, 7 years old, how does a person make sense of that? What does that equal? What do you think?
Nature lover:
Yeah, and as a kid, I would definitely tend to stew on it and then eventually calm down, but not ever really resolve anything or deal with it.
Brad:
Yeah. I’m sorry that that was your experience, and I think you are just, that is so common, I think. I hope we can talk about that with the group. Rhonda, anything to add from your side to that? That can give us some insight into where did our patterns start and then now as an adult reflecting on that, where do I want to be with that? How does that make sense for me now? What do you think?
Nature lover:
Yeah, I think I always talk about how I have a difficult time regulating, which is why I wanted to do this course and I do find it really hard to control my emotions. I don’t feel particularly amped up, but I do easily cry, which causes some social anxiety and stuff. I thought about it, I tried creative outlets. I spend a lot of time in nature, try to get enough sleep, all that stuff, right? Sure. But yeah, it’s a work in progress. And in thinking about it this week, I thought, well, I should probably try to more fully express the emotions I have in the moment more fully so that they don’t bubble out. I was out in nature in the back country the last couple days and with my boyfriend and another good friend, and I noticed that both of them would be skiing and they would say, oh, wow, it’s beautiful. Can you believe we lived near this? And really being mindful and present. I thought, “Well, I should probably take a page out of their books and really fully feel those feelings in the moment.”
Brad:
Wow. Do you feel joy like this? Is joy as intense too, as the sadness or fear that you feel? Is it?
Nature lover:
Yeah, definitely. I would say so, yeah.
Brad:
Okay. Okay. Wow, that is interesting. And do you see any connection to the patterns of upbringing? And I know this has got to be such an interesting domain for you with us talking about labelling and then with expression for you. I just think you have a really unique situation here.
Nature lover:
Yeah, I feel like, but then I have very little control over a lot of things,
Brad:
Right? Yeah. I like what you said earlier about do you feel like you have good pathways then for expression? You said nature. What else do you try to direct this toward?
Nature lover:
I do paint as well. I do watercolour paintings and acrylic paintings, but I’ve been in a rut and I haven’t been doing that, but I have been mending clothing and bags and things like that lately. Sewing and crocheting and…
Brad:
Hands and yeah.
Nature lover:
Things like that. Yeah, I definitely do have a creative side, I try to be more mindful to incorporate into more days.
Brad:
Good, good. Did you say painting? You do some? Yeah. Do you feel that emotional connection to the painting when you’re doing it or not really?
Nature lover:
Not really. No. Okay. Yeah. How about, and same thing with crochet, admitting I feel a sense of accomplishment, but it doesn’t feel particularly like an emotional expression.
Brad:
And that sounds like it probably fits more into skill too, that safe and calm pattern, rhythmic, repetitive, it’s soothing, safe, it’s familiar, predictable, that kind of thing. I wonder, socially you feel comfortable talking to people about feelings.
Nature lover:
Some people like to select groups.
Brad:
You have a few safe people that you can talk to?
Nature lover:
Definitely.
Brad:
If you feel afraid or if you’re feeling sad about something, can you speak with them?
Nature lover:
Yeah, definitely.
Brad:
I mean, that’s such a basic human one right there. That’s probably the most common expressive tool we have is social communication, but you have to have somebody safe to do that with, right? That’s the catch. If we don’t have somebody or if the person, our safe person is the one we’re upset with at the moment, then that closes that off. We’ve got to have something else somewhere else for that to go. Good. Patterns of expression. We talked a little bit about that. Gosh, Natalie and Rhonda, I wish we could hear from you. I don’t know what else we can, could look at the chat if you’re a fast typer. Okay, there we go. She’s putting some stuff in the chat. She says that’s her biggest trigger for emotions or your microphone not working as a trigger. I would say that is too,
Nature lover:
She says if her husband and her are arguing.
Brad:
People we care about and then if they’re our go-to, that was one of the biggest reasons we focused on self-regulation is, okay, what if I’m on my own here? What if I don’t have support right now? What can I still do? I don’t know where you all stand in this fight or fight environment. Okay, physical and verbal. The other thing, and I think this is worth pointing out, some of us become more of stuffing our feelings because our fight is pretty ugly. We have developed pretty good language skills. We can cut somebody up pretty darn fast. We’ve got sarcasm, we can hurt with our words. And then some of us, we end up shutting down because of that, because we know how bad we can hurt people. We have this, that stuffing comes from that too, we end up stuffing because of that, or we just let it rip, let it go, and pay for that on the backside.
Brad:
Good. What we want to do is try to channel that so you’re aware of it. We want to try to direct this. It’s almost like a path. I feel like instead of just letting it go all over the place, can I direct it a little bit? Not all the time, but the bulk of it in ways that I want to direct it. And yes, the answer is yes. You can direct some of that so you have control of it. Journaling’s a big one. I don’t know if any, I really don’t care for journaling. This is about as much journaling as I do. It’s just these short sorts of bursts, but we talked about where does that come from? Oh wow. How can that impact our relationships? I think that’s where you’re going from here. I pull up and go for a walk or craft until my brain is, yep.
Yeah, very good. Yes, those sound awesome. And where I was going earlier with that is I don’t know where you land on the higher power or spiritual component, but I see people plug that in here too because it’s always there, at least most of the spiritual systems that I’m familiar with. It’s something that you can always call upon or connect with or reach out to when you need to. And some people use nature in the same way. Yep. Give it to a hot air balloon. Do you almost feel a release like a physical when you do that? Almost like a weight? I’m just asking because some people have described that to me before that, and that’s where we have to be careful. You discharge a lot of intense emotions almost in a cathartic way. If we’re yelling or if we’re a fighter, there can be some reinforcement from that because it feels good for a second. The aftermath is not good, but it can feel good to us. If we’re feeling some good reinforcement for that, it could potentially lead us to keep strengthening that pattern, especially if it’s out of control. Yeah, yeah, yeah. True. You almost feel this sense of building and building and building and then it’s gone, or you can give it away and a release comes from that. Good. And that’s an intentional process. Sorry? Comments? Yes. I was talking a lot there.
Nature lover:
No, that all makes sense. Definitely. You feel the energy, right? When you get in a fight.
Brad:
Yeah.
Nature lover:
It makes sense that that energy has to go somewhere. If you tried to just be regulated without doing something to dissipate the energy that it wouldn’t really work long term.
Brad:
Yeah. I think in a relationship too, just when we used to in relationship counselling and things, we talk about rules of fighting and this one would come up a lot. What are the ground rules here? We know we’re going to get upset with each other. We’re not going to always agree. But what do you want to do with your anger and upset? It’s a way for me to be able to speak to parents kindly. Yeah. Yeah. And when it’s stuff that we feel strongly about, I mean, there are things that we have kids getting hurt or you look and people not doing what we would like them to do or political issues or religious, there’s all kinds of things that carry heavy emotion with it. I want to flip over to what do you think about on the other side? We talked a little bit about anger and sadness, fear, what about joy and gratitude on the other end?
Nature lover:
What about them?
Brad:
Yeah. Do you notice you’ve got ways for that to come through?
Nature lover:
Yeah, definitely. If I’m listening to music and I’m in a happy mood, then I’ll dance.
Brad:
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Dancing is a great one. Natalie too. Music is such a great one. Sharing. Gosh, talk about expression, right? Connecting with someone around an emotion for a song or connecting with a memory of a feeling that we had when that song was playing, or yes, identifying with another person that’s experiencing something similar to what we’re going through. What a powerful tool to not feel alone in the emotion. Yeah. Awesome. I think to me, this too, this gives us a little bit of a chance to, it helps us separate when we see anger, masking things. But you showed lots of joy. The idea of inappropriate expression of emotion isn’t just for the socially negative. Yeah, true.
Nature lover:
Have you gotten slack, Teacher 1 for expressing joy? Or people look at you funny for dancing in public or what?
Brad:
It’s too much. You’re too happy.
Nature lover:
Ever seen joy expressed weirdly? Not the dancing
Brad:
I have. And there’s things we have to be mindful of. I know we see it in the hospital situation. You have to be careful about celebrations in a hospital because people are there for sometimes really rotten reasons. And if we’re having a pizza party down the hall, but some people can’t handle big joy feelings. Yeah, that’s really interesting. I’ve seen that too. Really don’t allow themselves to celebrate a win or just we’re right back to it. What’s next? What’s next? And allowing joy. Isn’t that interesting? Or watching others be. Yeah, that’s an interesting thing. They’ll be upset or angry because someone, because we’re joyful or we’re having a good day or expressing
Nature lover:
Maybe the person experiencing joy feels scrutinized. Yeah. Trying to shut you down. Debbie Downers.
Brad:
I wonder where that comes from. That’s an interesting observation. Is it some jealousy, misery loves company oftentimes is a true statement. I’ve seen that.
Nature lover:
Or if they’re uncomfortable with expressing emotions themselves and are inhibited, then seeing somebody uninhibited. Could be
Brad:
People are scared. Challenging. Yeah. I think someone brought up last time, this whole belief of stoicism, you shouldn’t really go up or down. You should just be flat. It could be that. Yeah, they’re not comfortable with any, I think that might be where you’re going, Natalie, if they’re just not, we don’t need emotions. We’re not going to deal with it. We’re robots sort of a thing. There’s no time for it. Big stuffers, Flatliners. Yeah, absolutely. They can have a miserable time at Disney World, right? I mean, it’s just, yeah, at a birthday party. They’re the ones griping about the cake’s not good enough. Or what are we celebrating for? Oh, I feel bad for people like that. I think you probably heard that too. It hurts people, hurts people type of thing. They’re not feeling good, they’re lashing out at other folks, but wow, a lot here. Yeah, too many presents, too much joy. That’s right. Oh my gosh.
Nature lover:
Brad, seeing as you’re in this line of work and you teach these courses, what upbringing did you have?
Brad:
We were more, I was along the lines. I remember people really picking at me saying when I was younger, they were like, Brad, you really don’t seem to ever get angry. And I remember our upbringing was like, Nope. Nobody seemed to, they used humour a lot. And when things get serious, I try to catch myself doing that too, because there’s a fine line here around toxic positivity too. It’s like, oh, we’re just always going to be happy. We’re not going to worry about sadness and anger and all that stuff. Just look on the bright side or tell a joke. Some of my family still does that. It’s like you can’t hardly have a serious conversation about this really sucks. This sucks. It’s sad. Let’s be sad about it. And just for a minute, we don’t have to stay sad forever, but can we acknowledge that this is sad? It’s not a time to tell a joke. And that was something I really had to wrestle with, like, geez. And it was like learning as an adult, what the heck does anger feel like? Is that what that is? It’s weird because you just push it away.
Nature lover:
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely can relate to using humour to diffuse situations, but I mean, to an extent, sure. It’s not always appropriate, but to an extent it is a way to release a little bit of energy.
Brad:
Yeah. But I think to me, there has to be, there doesn’t have to be, but it’s healthy to be able to sit with these emotions for a minute.
Brad:
Because if you don’t, boy, they’ll catch up to you. I just see that all the time. And that’s why I talk about it like energy. It’s like you can’t run from it. You can’t stuff it. You can try, but it seems like it’s going to break out or break through in these other times. Just don’t unpack those feelings yet. Every feeling is okay. I love that. Have you ever, gosh, there’s a poem I’m thinking of Var Rumi. Gosh, you almost quoted that. I was going to, maybe we could close with that. You almost quoted that poem. Are you quoting a poem here? It is.
Nature lover:
No, not intentionally.
Brad:
Not intentionally. Well, you must not knowingly. You’re a poet and didn’t know it. Gosh. Okay. It’s called a guest house, if I can get this out.
Nature lover:
Oh, I have heard this. I think red at yoga.
Brad:
Yeah, probably. Yeah. This being human is a guest house every morning, a new arrival, a joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes and unexpected visitors welcome and entertain them all, even if they’re a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house, empty of its furniture, still treat each guest honourably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight, the dark thought, the shame, the malice. Meet them at the door laughing and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.
Nature lover:
That’s so beautiful.
Brad:
I thought that really hit me when my mindfulness instructor read that to us and I was like, gosh, that’s, that’s the goal. Let ‘em come to the house and see ‘em, greet. They’re part of me, but they’re a guest and they can move on and make room for another one to come in.
Nature lover:
Perfect timing, Brad.
Brad:
That really reminded me of that, Teacher 1, when you said that, that they’re all okay and they’ll pass. Well, thank you group for sharing. That was great. Thank you.
Group Feedback, Discussion, and Questions (text only)
Jenny:
Hello. How’d everybody’s rooms go?
Brad:
There was a lot to unpack.
Gord:
I’m feeling pretty sad.
Brad:
How are you? Good job. That’s okay.
Gord:
Yeah, we’re just talking about healthy versus unhealthy ways. Yeah, it was shocking. You’re right. For every emotion, there’s a good way and a bad way. I never even thought about it, Amy was just describing how maybe she can get into it in unhealthy ways, being accused of showing sadness in an unhealthy way. I was like, well, how is that possible?
Amy | Osteopathic Manual Therapist:
Well, we were talking about how some people think of crying as being manipulative, but the question is, did that person make themself cry? And a lot of times it’s a reflection that that person doesn’t want to associate or feel them to be attached to the feeling of sadness.
They’re turning to someone else’s emotional expression. Instead of it being their own neutral expression within themself, they’re treating it as being towards somebody to manipulate. You have to deliberately be using something to control. If someone’s like me, they’ve got a kinesthetic emotional memory disorder. We can’t stack a trajectory of emotions. Situations build without your being tracking the trajectory, only feeling snapshots, and suddenly it feels overwhelming and you just start crying. But that was a spontaneous cry as an outlet for a sense of overwhelm, which had nothing to do with any other person. It wasn’t towards somebody. It wasn’t communicative per se, although somebody can pay attention and communicate from it. But I was just sharing that when I was about 13 and I had a softball coach that when I spontaneously cried one time, she said, don’t manipulate me. And I was shocked because sadness in my home was the only negative emotion we were allowed to have. I think. I couldn’t believe that somebody would think that somebody would try to make themselves sad to accomplish something, or the fact that she had sat me so much and only played me a couple innings in the field and had told me that I’d play first and then didn’t play me first, why she wouldn’t expect me to feel sad to cry because of that.
I was more shocked. I’d never heard of anybody thinking of crying as manipulative. But in that case, I think she didn’t like feeling sadness. She turned it into me manipulating her instead of me expressing sadness.
Brad:
That’d be interesting. Yeah. Other thoughts? There’s just a lot here. You dug a little bit into it as a kid. How did this look in your home? It’s interesting to connect that to where we are as adults.
Jenny:
Well, it’s embarrassing to say out loud, but I was speaking with Teacher 3 and we were talking about how our family dealt with things. She was talking about how her grandma put everything in a box. That was the way she dealt with things. And how Jenna does that as well. The way she manages it is to set three things aside and then she deals with it. But for me, anger, sadness was welcome. I was one of three daughters. Sadness was welcome as what Amy said, but anger, the way I expressed anger was not welcome. And she said, what did your parents do with it? And to be honest, my parents locked me in my bedroom. That’s how they dealt with my anger when I was younger than seven. But that’s how they dealt with it. I still carry those memories today. I don’t feel like my story was acknowledged and I wasn’t taught how to deal with it. I was taught what I was doing wrong. Right.
Brad:
Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. You think about being locked in a room with this energy and then how does that connect to a skill? Where’s the skill train? What is the coaching, the teaching, what am I supposed to do with this? And that came up in our group too, it’s like, and this is not to blame anybody, because what I find when I dig into this is our parents didn’t know either what to do. They probably didn’t have a class like this. They didn’t have the information. And you ask them what their parents did, they’re probably a step up from that or two in hopefully a good direction. But that came up in our room. I don’t know, Nature lover, if you feel like Sharon, just a little bit about your Yeah, for
Nature lover:
Sure. Yeah, I shared that. It was really interesting when Brad asked us to reflect on that. And then we went into the group and immediately I was like, yeah, my dad would have angry outbursts and my mom would cry. It’s probably what’s acceptable for different sexes. And I noticed my brother also was angry and I cried. I was also sent to my room if I had big emotions with no tools on how to deal with them,
Jenny:
It was to get over it, right? It was, “Take some time, get over it.”
Nature lover:
And yeah, don’t blame my parents. They’re loving parents. They just celebrated their 50th anniversary. No blame at all. But they didn’t have the tools either. I’m almost 50 and I don’t have the tools yet. Thankfully I haven’t raised any children and passed that on.
Brad:
I appreciate your vulnerability and honesty because, and I want to acknowledge that’s hard as a kid. And then we don’t want to blame anybody, but it doesn’t take away how hard that is. And even seeing how it’s connected to our lives now as grownups, I was talking about, I had to learn how to be angry in our house. We didn’t get angry. It was like when emotions got serious, we told a joke or we, Hey, look at this shiny thing over here. We did a lot of just not focusing on it, it just wasn’t something that he talked about, but it was there and I felt it. I didn’t even really know what to do with it until I became an adult. It’s like, what is this? Is this angry? Am I mad right now? What is this about? It’s fascinating to open that door.
Amy:
I mean, related to that. Jenny, I heard you say that your experience wasn’t really acknowledged or accepted. And then I think along with that, it is saying you’re not acceptable with your experience. While you’re having your experience, you need to stay away from us. It’s that experience. And then you’re only acceptable with us when you’re a certain way. Then rather than even focusing on the anger, the question is why was the anger? Were you feeling trapped? Were you feeling not seen? Were you feeling whatever? Even backing up before the anger to go, what things do you not have words for and what things do you not have tools for? But even outside of the anger that now is completely insignificant and unacceptable.
Brad:
We’re reinforced. I can come out of my room now. I’m going to stuff this really, nothing was resolved, but I’m not crying anymore. I’m not yelling. You just reinforce this idea of, well, we’re not going to acknowledge it, we’re not going to deal with it. It just goes into this file,
Jenny:
Which I think is a reflection. Thank you, Amy. Because I think it’s a reflection of where we are in society. Meaning we were taught not to talk about religion and not to talk about politics. And if there’s two things we need to talk about right now, it’s both of those things and this is what we were taught. And I think a lot of, when I look at my childhood when I was two, the story that my family carries is that’s not fair. I used to always say, that’s not fair. And the response was, life isn’t fair, Jennifer. That was how we were brought up. And I wanted to say something to what Nature lover offered because Jenna and I spoke about this too. She is a son, and she said, the grandparents will say, stop crying when he cries. And I was saying how I equated that being a daughter and worse sadness and crying was totally okay. I equated it to being my boys. People don’t want my boys to be crying. There’s something wrong with them crying. I have two boys. That’s where I went. And she said, that makes a lot of sense because again, and I would love you to answer this question about embarrassment because is it embarrassing for a boy to cry? And is that why we stop it versus expressing some anger which is more acceptable?
Brad:
No, I think there’s definitely gender expectations there that are different still today, maybe somewhat better than it used to be. But
Gord:
Yeah, I grew up with three other brothers, one sister, it was like a cage match, UFC cage match every week. There were literally fights and parents would just stand back not dealing with the escalations up to that point. But then I remember them watching, and when I finally stood up to my younger, bigger brother, it’s about time you punched him in the face and it’s like none of them, and crying. You can imagine what older brothers do when you’re feeling emotional, right?
Brad:
Sure.
Gord:
I always say average iq, but high eq is not acceptable.
Brad:
Yeah. Survival.
Gord:
Yeah, survival. Dad’s very stoic. Mom’s very passionate. She openly discussed and wanted debates about religion and politics to the point fist pounding on the table. Her dad, my grandfather, taught her that. And there was a stain up on the ceiling in our kitchen because the coffee cups went flying. Wow. And that was like that. So
Brad:
Gordon, how do you do it now? What do you do with this? How do you express these emotions?
Gord:
Yeah, not much better.
Brad:
I don’t see any stains on the ceiling, but
Gord:
Yeah, there were stains on the wall. My sons saw. Well, yeah, there were stains on the wall. What do you expect when you find out your brother was just killed by somebody?
Brad:
Oh gosh.
Gord:
He was on his bike going for a bike ride and he got wiped out and you’re, you’re going to have reactions in the moment for sure. But yeah, it’s like there’s from zero 10 in that moment, tragic and other moments too where it’s how do you deescalate? How do you deescalate? That’s not something dad grew up with on a farm or mom grew up watching the Nazis do their things in the Netherlands, you don’t learn those skills. But now I have to. Right.
Brad:
Is this something you’re working on?
Gord:
Well, I have to. Right? One son’s coming back, I still have a son at home. I have to learn and teach them better skills than just pounding fists. This is helping. Yeah, this is all helping for sure.
Jenny:
Yeah. There’s been a change already in Gord. I’ve seen. I get to hang out with Gord once a week, yeah. Cool. He keeps saying how great this has been. Yeah.
Brad:
I want Gord to start working on a book.
Amy:
Jenny, regarding the comment about embarrassment. I think embarrassment is on a big spectrum, and at the strong end of the spectrum is shame. And I think it’s a big motivator. And of course the difference between shame and guilt is shame if your identity is icky. Guilt is your action was bad. One of the worst toxic emotions or impressions is shame, is to feel that as a whole human we’re bad and a mess and a failure and awful. I’d say embarrassments on a spectrum. Some people can be just lightly embarrassed that they did an action and they see it only as an action, and they don’t think that it’s going to break their relationship. They’re going to be looked down on. But then you look at the spectrum of embarrassment and you get to the shame end, where my whole identity is bad. This is going to be a relationship breaker. I’m going to miss opportunities and that kind of thing. I think that’s the type of thing that’s a huge driver for people. When you see people that care more about their image than about their real effects on people, I think shame is usually tied in there.
Jenny:
Yeah. If you want to put something in the chat, we could maybe talk about it. I’m sorry, your audio isn’t working.
Gord:
Do some people actually use shame to manipulate others? Is that what you’re suggesting there? Well,
Amy:
You trigger shame in people. You have a lot of power because shame’s so powerful. I’m just saying in general that shame’s way more powerful than say a mild embarrassment that’s action related, like embarrassment on a spectrum. Where embarrassment got to the level that you feel your relationships are threatened or you feel that as a human, that shame is usually tied into the fact that we’re social beings and shame gets tied to secrets, right? Secrets build shame because we think something bad that if anybody knew it, they wouldn’t accept us. And that makes the shame worse. But shame isn’t necessarily only used as manipulation, but it’s just that if someone triggers shame. If you want to share something and they act like what you said was so icky and shameful and untouchable and unspeakable that they can’t even acknowledge or talk about it if they’re silent, when you’re open about something, that’s a way to build shame, right?
Amy:
Because if you’re comfortable dialoguing on something that was discouraging for somebody or felt embarrassing and you show you accept them and can dialogue on it, you’re shame busting. But if you turn it into a secret or you turn it into some icky thing that you can even engage with, then that stays just in that person’s head. And then they’re like, well, why can’t that person talk about it? What’s bad about it? What’s bad about me? Right? Silence and secrets are shame builders and talking openly and going, oh, I’m one of 10 people that did that. Well then it’s not such an isolated deal. I’m not so bad. Then that’s a shame busting.
Gord:
Interesting. Okay.
Nature lover:
I know Brene Brown talks about that shame cannot live in the open. It has to live in darkness. If you can own it and something that you’re ashamed of, if you can own it and talk about it, or like Jenny bringing up, oh, I slipped up and maybe sent a heated message on social media or whatever, but if you make a mistake and own it, then it dissipates the shame as well.
Brad’s Final Word on Expression and Takeaways for the Next Session
Brad (15:09):
I’d say you all did a lot of [myth] busting tonight just visiting openly about these experiences. If I might know, we’re running up on time. Should I wind down a little bit here?
Jenny:
Yeah, please, Brad.
Brad:
Teacher 1 really triggered thought. I thought she was writing a poem for a second in the chat, we thought she’s a poet and didn’t know it. We had a poem that we felt was really relevant, and some of you might know this poem, it’s short, it’s by Rumi. It’s called The Guest House, and I think it’s really appropriate. My mindfulness teacher read this to us during our study on emotions and just being introspective here. If you’re willing, I’ll just read. It’s really short. It’s called The Guest House by Rumi.
“This being human is a guest house every morning, a new arrival, a joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all. Even if there are a crowd of sorrows who violently sweep your house, empty of its furniture, still treat each guest honourably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight, the dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.”
Really as we were talking about acknowledging these emotions, sitting with them for a minute, I thought that was a good analogy. I love that poem because it says, create some space for them. They’re normal, acknowledge them. And we talked a little bit about sharing what we can do with them while they’re spending time with us, and then that’s allowing us to, okay, you’ve been here a while, we’re going to clear that out and make room for the next one to come. I think seeing them as transitional is helpful. Sometimes we move through these things, but if we don’t sit with them for a minute, it’s hard to move past them.
I really appreciate the conversation. This can get pretty deep, pretty fast, and make sure you all take care of yourself tonight. Maybe do some safe and calm practice, maybe do some expression [work]. Because we got in touch with some heavy stuff here, which is okay. Next week, skill six. We are going to transition out of emotion regulation. We’ve learned, we’ve gone through five skills already, we’ve got some exposure to learning about what our physical warning signs are, practising safe and calm to shut that fight or flight down. Now we’ve got labelling emotions. We can separate what we’re feeling, ownership. I can turn the dial a little bit if I want to. We have “expression” on the board. I can direct this energy where I want to. And now we’re going to take a little step into, okay, how does thinking connect to all this?
We’ve got a physical response, we’ve got an emotional response to challenge. We’ve talked through, and now we’re going to look at “what do my thoughts have to do with my emotions and behaviour and this skill here?” The belief system is the core of cognitive therapy. Really, if you’ve done any cognitive therapy, this will sound familiar because it’s going to ask you to take a look, an inventory of your core beliefs. What are your rules for living? Defining characteristics of your personality, who you are, the building blocks of who you are based on our experience, our education, what people tell us. We form these rules for living. It’s really important to be aware of what those rules are. I will just throw out real quickly, there should be a direct line. If you lay these skills out in a row, there’s a direct line from Skill six back to threat because rules for living. When your rules for living are violated, you’re going to experience a threat. I want you to think about that connection as you go through this, and we’ll process that more next week.
Jenny:
Wonderful. Wow. Thank you guys. That was a big week. I agree. I was saying to Brad, I’m glad that we get a week to soak on these things and then reflect on it. Yeah, this has been amazing. Have a good week, everyone.
Brad:
Yes, take care.
Jenny:
Okay, bye for now. Bye.
