“Faith Leaders Across Alberta Oppose” features four leaders of the Alberta faith community with diverse Christian backgrounds who describe their spiritual journeys, articulate commitments to pluralism, and explain why more than 200 faith leaders signed a public letter opposing a recent Alberta government–backed Christian gathering that sought to shape policy through a narrow, right‑wing religious agenda. Across the conversation each of them stress the importance of inclusive public life, interfaith respect, and the “inherent dignity of every person,” warning against privileging one religious voice in policymaking and calling instead for leadership grounded in hospitality, social and environmental justice, “preference for the poor,” abundance rather than scarcity, and everyday spiritual practices that help people respond to rising fear, polarization, and separatist politics with courage, love, and shared responsibility for the common good.
Key themes which emerged throughout the four separate discussions are best summarized by Reverend Dr. John Pentland: hospitality, spirituality, social justice, and risk. Now is the time for faith leaders, all leaders really, to take risks. It has never been more important than right now.
Additionally, plurality is explained throughout this conversation. The importance of seeking different views and multiple outcomes. Not seeking one unified goal.
I am happy to hold more conversation with these leaders or others who support or have signed the letter of opposition. Here’s the full transcript to assist your listening.
Introductions to The Gravity Well and Alberta Faith Leaders
Jenny (00:00:04):
Welcome to the Gravity Well podcast with me, Jenny Yeremiy. I host the Gravity Well to celebrate and share the stories of people looking to empower others with the knowledge and skills required to reestablish stability in our communities. My mission is to work through heavy issues in conversation and process in order to lighten the load.
I acknowledge that I live on the traditional territories of Treaty seven and Metis Districts five and six. The treaties and self-governance agreements established by indigenous peoples are created to honour the laws of the land, maintain balance with nature and give back to uphold reciprocal relationships.
This knowledge and intention are what guide the Gravity Well conversations. I ask for genuine dialogue, real hearts, and openness to different perspectives. This is your invitation to find common ground with me.
Positions taken by participants, either individually or collectively, do not necessarily represent those of the Gravity Well.
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Thank you so much for joining me, Leslie. I’m super pleased to have Leslie Gardner in the studio today. We are today speaking about spirituality and about the recent meeting that the provincial government had with some specific religious leaders and just to break down this issue and opportunity together. Leslie, can we start with a little bit about you, your spiritual journey and what brought you here today? Thank you.
Leslie:
Sure. Thanks, Jenny. I’ve had varied exposure to different religious organisations in my life. Started off Anglican and then as a kid in the country with a Baptist church and then as an adult, became Roman Catholic and I’m now participating in congregations that are Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. I’m also part of a group here in Lethbridge who started what we call the Lethbridge Inclusive Catholic Community Fellowship led by a woman priest.
Jenny:
Fabulous. And remind me, Leslie, when we spoke earlier, you were mentioning you do studies at the University of Alberta, is that correct?
Leslie:
Yes. Yeah. I’m also part of a community around St. Stephens College, which is a theology college on the campus affiliated with the University of Alberta and had its roots in the United Church. And we’re still very much involved with the United Church, but it’s also much broader than that in the master’s programs and demand programs that we offer.
Jenny:
Incredible. Thank you for all that work. What a journey. Anglican, Baptist, Catholic, now evangelical and united. That’s wonderful. You’ve dabbled in everything Christian, is that right?
Leslie:
Not exactly, but lots of influence from important people that you meet, influencers of various kinds, people you admire. What do they have to share with you? And I’ve been really fortunate there.
Bill:
Hello, everyone. My name is Bill Way and I lived in Alberta for 50 years in Calgary and now I’m five years on Vancouver Islands. My spiritual journey is pretty interesting. I was born Catholic and was brought up to go to church and be a good boy. Around my years in high school and university, I joined a folk choir and I started singing at church. That little tiny version of the Catholic church really appealed to me and we had families that we raised with each other’s children and a really good community. And in that journey, I met a lovely lady from the United Church and my wife’s father was a minister. She was a preacher’s kid. I was Catholic. There’s lots of things that weren’t good about this, but basically that just kept adding to the diversity of my spiritual background. We raised our kids with a concept called double belonging, which means that our kids were too young to know that we’re going to go to church at the Catholic church at nine and then we’re going to jump in the car and we’re going to go to the United Church at 10:30.
They just think that’s what people do. By the time they got to be teenagers, they’d kind of had enough of church. We just sort of did that. And I got more and more involved with the United Church. I actually, without becoming a member, I became secretary of the Church Council. I was on the committee that hired and fired ministers and I continued on with the music too. I was in the choir in the United Church. Interestingly enough, this strange phenomenon called the Roman Catholic women priests came into my life. Not only did I just jump back into the Catholic church, I loved the fact that the RCWP movement abandons a lot of the things about the Catholic church that I don’t like, like exclusivity. In the past, I’d say 10 years, I’ve been an active member of RCWP Canada. About my spiritual journey, it includes my travel.
When we were travelling together, we have travelled to Turkey, to Thailand, to Guatemala and in all of these places, the dominant religion is not the one I was brought up with. And I just learned, you know what? There’s plenty of pathways to a spiritual life. There’s nothing exclusive about it. And the more you kind of hold onto a belief and say, “This is my truth and you better accept my truth.” That is like a bell ringing in my ear saying, “You’re actually not in the right path at all. “ In a nutshell, I’ve gone from Catholic to United. Now I’m back to a new version of Catholic.
Jenny:
Incredible. And I love how you said you, well, first of all, the double belonging, providing space for both of you to continue that faith journey and then eventually wrap around to something that was merging the two ideas together in a sense. It’s so neat. And I love the idea of the dropping some of the things that you didn’t like about the one faith that you were raised in and being able to carry forward a message that you still can get behind. Wonderful.
John:
My name’s John. I am the lead minister at church in Chicago. I grew up in Ontario and moved out here in serving a rural parish for four years where I learned a lot. And then a suburban church in Southern Calgary for 10 years and three years at Calgary, an area United Way. A nonprofit in the city where I learned a lot about how the cities are connected to the great people that are doing amazing work within the city. And then I’ve been at Hillhurst United for 21 years, which is a historic building over 115 years. We’ve been in the neighbourhood. Four practices, hospitality. We believe you got to eat and drink together to know each other better through spirituality. Religion’s got a bad name in the world. We seek to live with religion, honouring the soul and diversity of each person. Social justice, how do we take what we say and sing and pray into the world to transform it and love?
And the last one is risk. Jesus’ most common phrase is being unafraid. And right now we’re living in a time where religious people and secular people are fearful and encouraged to be fearful and hateful is judgmental and we need to risk being open, honest, vulnerable, and loving. That’s a bit about who I am. I cycle every day. I got four kids, a dog and two cats.
Jenny:
Amazing, John. Thank you so much for that wonderful summary. I think those principles are just something I will absolutely underscore as we go through here. It’s just so nice to hear the thought of being courageous now and the importance of people to recognize that fear is growing and that it takes courage and leadership to overcome it. I’m pleased to have Reverend Samaya Oakley in the studio today. First, can we start with an introduction please, Samaya? Thank you.
Samaya:
Absolutely. I am privileged and honoured to serve the fine people at Calgary Unitarians. I had the delightful pleasure of serving as their intern minister back in 2013, 2014. I went away and did ministry in other contexts and other settings in 2023. Early in the year, it was like, “Hi, I need full-time ministry.” And Calgary was looking for full-time ministry and our styles aligned and I ended up joining them as their minister in August of 2023, 10 years later. It was quite a serendipitous connection that we had. I knew them, they followed me. It was a match kind of made in, I’m going to say in heaven, haha we have been doing great ministry together over these last three years that I’ve been with them.
Jenny:
Wonderful. Have you always been a part of the Unitarians movement, Samaya?
Samaya:
I’ve known the Unitarians at a point in my life when my life blew up, my career blew up, my marriage blew up and I was on my own with a four-year-old and two different friends in two different social circles said, “You’d find a home in the Unitarian Congregation.” I ended up joining the congregation in North Vancouver. They’re the congregation I credit with making me the minister that I am today. They really supported me in my path and I speak very fondly of them. Just about 30 some years ago that I have followed the path and I work continentally as well as nationally. I did youth ministry for 15 years and then I officially became a minister and ordained and still do comprehensive values-based sexuality education training, our whole lives program that we run involved nationally with our ministers, the UU ministers of Canada, just finishing my second term three years as my president.
Served as three years another time and just finishing my second term in my three years. So quite involved, lot of professional development. I tend to focus a lot of mine in the area of sexuality and also racial justice. Those are two very strong passions of mine. We have a comprehensive values-based sexuality education program that I mentioned that we’re going to be kicking off this fall. We’re starting with kindergarten grade one program and also a young adult program that will be kicking off, but I’m a facilitator in seven different levels of age-appropriate sexuality education.
Jenny:
Yeah, that sounds very important. I think it would be helpful for people to understand what age-appropriate sexual education looks like and knowing that it is coming from faith leaders, that this is with the best moral and community interest in mind. Yeah, wonderful.
Samaya:
Yeah. One of the things I think that really sold me in Unitarian Universalism is I was sitting around a table just after I joined the NorthShore congregation and it was the first time in my life I had ever sat down. I was young, relatively young, early 30s, that’s young-ish. And it was the first time in my life I sat down with humanists and atheists and mystics, people like me who come from a pagan background and how enlivening that conversation was and how much it opened my perspective and my view on the world because up until then having been raised in a pretty traditional Catholic religion, there’s one answer. And in this conversation there were so many different answers and they were all based on people’s lived experiences, people really passionately looking at their own worldview. I say, when you come through our doors, your work is just beginning because we’re not going to tell you what redemption means or salvation means or how to live a good life.
That is actually something that we encourage people to do for themselves. We will journey with you in that spiritual practice and we will be there with you as you ask those big questions of life that we all ask of life. What does it mean to be a good person? How does my life have meaning and purpose? What is it that I can do and give to the world and how can I do that? How do I make sense of the world in which I live? We don’t have the answers to that. We will journey with you in that exploration. And I think that that is such a beautiful gift that it’s one of the reasons why I signed this letter because of our tradition’s deep commitment to religious pluralism, the inherent dignity of every person and the importance of maintaining a healthy boundary between government and any one religious voice.
That is such an important thing for me.
Jenny:
Oh, that’s wonderful. You’re making me remember because just to give you a litle bit of my religious background, I was baptized in the United Church but went to Catholic school because of proximity. But what I remember most about Catholic school is high school where we learned about the other religions, like you said. And to me what was really neat about that was finding the common threads between each of the religions. I think that was probably the time when I really enjoyed religious studies the most is learning about those different ways of approaching things, but finding those underlying moral values. Is there anything more you’d like to say by my way of explaining pluralism for folks just to understand that better?
Samaya:
In Unitarian Universalism, my congregation here in Calgary, we have people who are about humanists, about atheists. We also have mystics. We also have people coming from various other world traditions as well and that is celebrated here. It becomes part of the tapestry of who you are as a human being. And it is in that interchange in that tension between holding what is really important for me and listening deeply to what is important for you and somehow finding a way through that. It’s living in the tension, living always in that tension and being comfortable with discomfort.
Jenny:
Wow, that is a really important lesson, I think, for all of us right now. Why don’t we underscore the letter please?
Can you help people understand what was in the letter, why did you sign it and the purpose of it? Thank you.
Samaya (00:16:15):
Here’s one of the things sat with me that I was really sort of thinking about is that the gathering was a Christian gathering. I do understand that public officials regularly attend to get at events and faith leaders and myself and premiers. We should all be free to participate in the life of our own religious communities. And I know for us, we would welcome opportunities to host elected officials within our own traditions. And at the same time, I don’t think the heart of the concern is about any one of those elements in isolation. It’s about what that event represented in the broader public context. When a sitting premier convenes or lends significant weight to a gathering that is framed as shaping public policy through a particular lens, particularly one that appears ideologically narrow, I’m wondering what message it sends to those who are not in that circle.
I’m wondering about how it affects the perceived independence and inclusion of other faith communities. And that’s a place where I hear resonance with another concern that I’ve seen named is about the tone and the impact of the event and whether or not it contributed to a sense of a shared civic belonging. I actually wondered if it might even narrow it.
Jenny:
Yes, absolutely. One thing I will say is not only are you concerned about policy being shaped by what has been said in that, there has been policy shaped by this narrow group of people, I’ll be specific. There’s an organization called Cardus, which is very aligned with evangelical Christian faith and is during the strike, for example, the teacher’s strike, they made specific recommendations for the province to take and all of those recommendations were taken by the government. There is evidence of that. And then this event was in my mind then solidifying that for people because it was narrow in its invitation list. Is that right?
Samaya:
That’s correct. Yeah. I think public policy needs to be shaped for the people who are living in a place where the policy is going to be affected. And does that policy really fit for all Albertans, for instance? I don’t think so. And to add to that, it’s also in the public realm where there is one religious voice and I want to counter that with another religious voice because there are other religious voices that are very important and need to be taken into consideration. And that’s where the rub is for me.
Jenny:
Right. I’m going to underscore that there are at least 180 last I looked faith leaders who signed this from many ... Oh, now it’s 202. Sorry.
Samaya:
202. Okay.
Jenny:
And people should see it’s many different faith backgrounds, Anglican, there’s United, there’s Mennonite, there’s Unitarian, there’s the United Church of Canada. I know there’s a Catholic group in here because I am trying to seek voices. There’s an evangelical church in here as well. So many different faiths have taken the time to sign this, faith leaders, excuse me, and members, I should say, who signed this. And I’m just going to underscore some of the things that were mentioned in the letter for people. They speak to a public life is one that makes room for all voices and not to diminish some voices. You want to have a gathering that is shaped by welcoming and humility and that it shouldn’t be shaped by privilege or a limited access and that many traditions are not being represented in that. To understand that’s that plurality piece you spoke to again, helping people who are in the margins and understanding that there should be a diverse chorus of faith communities who are helping shape the province that we share.
Anything else in there that I missed? I know there was something about diversity as well.
Samaya:
When I listen to you list all of the traditions, they all tend to be traditions that have come out of Christianity. That raises a question for me. Where are the indigenous voices in that? Where are voices that come from, let’s say the Sikh tradition or the Muslim tradition or the Jewish tradition? I’m wondering about that because what I would love to see is a more inclusive vision of religious life in Alberta. It’s not necessarily a Christian vision of religious life in Alberta. As I said, there are humanists and atheists in our congregations in the province and how does that impact their view? I just really want to highlight that. When we look at public policy as being shaped by one tradition and one viewpoint, is it really public policy that benefits us all?
Jenny:
Yeah, thank you. So important to mention that this is limited what seems like to Christian views so far. I think I would encourage anybody who’s listening from another faith, please reach out to the organizer of this. I’m certain there’s room for everyone to sign. It would be great, like you say, and maybe I’ve missed it, but to have some other voices on this protest list, if you will.
Bill:
I found out about it through the Roman Catholic woman priest in one of my churches. And as soon as I got involved with it, I said, “Ho, ho, okay, this is not the right pathway.” And what I understand about the letter is that instead of embracing the message from one branch of the church and then try to make that into government policy, to me, that rings true about the Catholic church in about 300 AD when they decided, “Well, you know what? It’s okay to have Rome in charge of the religion. And by the way, it’s now the law and you’re going to be crucified if you don’t get involved with this. “ I’m getting a little bit emotional, but
I really believe that all major religions have a special message about taking care of each other and especially in terms of taking care of people who have no voice, people who have less education, people who are basically different.
Again, I studied quite a bit of Buddhism and a little bit of Islam and certainly Christianity. That base message is, yeah, take care of those people who don’t have a voice because it’s your responsibility You just do that. I was concerned because the event that was described, I think it was May the 5th, really looked like it was exclusive to people with money and really inviting people who had the same echo chamber about what the message was all about. In other words, let’s try to do something for the privileged people, the powerful people, let’s try and get the wealthy people and we’ll gather them together, which I know is a recipe for political strength that if you can tap into people with money and all that, it’s good for politics. It sucks for spirituality. And I guess I’d rather talk about spirituality than religion because the word religion itself just breaks us up into groups.
I’m not into that. I’m into gathering the groups together.
Jenny:
That’s such a wonderful message. And yes, it’s again, a theme I’ve heard from the others who have spoken in this is the importance of standing up for those who don’t have a voice and standing up for those that are marginalized, who are considered different and are not feeling supported in society rather than the ones that are well established and have the power already, let’s say. I’d
John:
Just like to begin by quickly saying clearly this is not a prayer breakfast.
This is the present government lending its ear and its authority to a movement within the province that wants to replace secular law with one religion’s rules, which is Christianity.
As a Christian minister and leader for 65 years I’ve been in the Christian community, the Jesus that is being portrayed by the right wing in this province is not the Jesus of the Bible. This is Jesus that’s manipulated to fit a particular lens on the world.
My first comment would be that this breakfast was not inclusive, that it was who was targeted to the right wing conservative movement within the province. We did have a United Church ministry who attended and his report back to our community was that a group of people who certainly have on religious view and that’s Christian and one particular agenda, which is right wing. He says another talks about banning abortion, eliminating made, promoting anti-trans view in the culture and opposing the anti-hate law.
All of these things are religious questions and issues and concerns. And the fact that these things are talked about without recognizing the interreligious culture of Alberta is really important was at a breakfast last week in Calgary and there were nine different religious communities gathered, 250 people with interfaith, which is far more representative of Alberta and certainly of the world. Christianity is one religion among many. And it was wonderful to hear that all religions are about human rights, all Christians, Buddhist speaks, et cetera. And we need to be standing up and speaking out where these kinds of narrow religious quote unquote statements are being made. Just in short, it wasn’t interfaith. It was not representative of even the Christians. The United Church certainly is more progressive than some of the other churches, but we certainly honour and respect and work with the Catholic community, the Baptist community, the Seventh Day Adventist community of Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The diversity even within Christianity is something that we have to honour and respect and be engaged with. It was faulty and two basis just to end this. It wasn’t inclusive of other world religions and it wasn’t inclusive of the diversity of the Christian faith itself.
Jenny:
Brilliant. One thing you hit home with me is this, if we look at the goals, if we look at the goals and the objectives of this event and try to actually tie that back to Jesus, back to the teachings of the New Testament, where are the examples of those things being fulfilled? To me, it’s the idea of the co-opting of Jesus and what he stood for that is just so important to underscore for people. Thank you. And just the fact that it’s not interfaith even, it’s not representing Christianity as a whole, let alone any other religion. Thank you for that.
Leslie:
I am a believer in free speech and the right to gather and I value diversity. What that means is that not everybody is going to think the way I do and that’s okay with me. I think healthy debate is important. I also have values so that’s what disturbed me about the event because it seemed to be championing and in an exclusionary kind of way, a certain way of being and living and thinking as our letter, the faith leader letter says, Alberta is home to people of many backgrounds, many faiths, many ways of living a good life. That’s what disturbed me was that the event seemed to be very much excluding some people and setting one way of being and thinking and living up as Not only the best way, but the only way. I think that that’s shortsighted.
Jenny:
Yeah, thank you. It’s very important to represent all people and all faiths in the province. So thank you so much for taking a stand for that and making it be known. Leslie,
Can you chat a little bit about the role of faith leaders that you see today, especially in these uncertain times that we are in? The importance of terms like plurality and diversity, which you already mentioned, please.
Leslie (00:30:28):
Absolutely. I think it sits with that word leadership. Faith leaders are leaders. And I think one of the most important things that leaders can do for us is give us a vision of the kind of world that we want to live in and the kind of people that we want to be and that we aspire to be. And I really appreciated the values that were spoken to by the faith leaders in their letter of welcome and humility and inclusion. If you believe in diversity, then it is diversity for all in all circumstances and faith leaders can lead us in seeing the opportunities for doing exactly that. And of course, faith leaders can encourage all of us to participate in different events that practice the values and the vision that they speak about and that we ascribe to them and that we try to be like in a Christian faith, we have a model there of someone who absolutely practiced inclusion and we have an understanding in the writing that’s left behind about the importance of what’s called God’s preference for the poor.
If we understand poverty in a broad kind of way, then I think our faith leaders can help us see all the ways in society from social structures and policies that result in people being “poor”, that it isn’t just economically poor but held back and barriers to success in all kinds of ways. That’s what I mean when I say the poor.
I think the faith leaders have a real role in translating what that phrase “preference for the poor” means in this troubled world.
That’s what I would expect. Faith leaders are role models and cheerleaders and in all kinds of ways are talking about what we should be doing and show us what we should be doing by the way they live their lives.
Jenny:
Yeah, that’s wonderful. I’m glad for you to underscore this concept of preference for the poor. Sounds like a faith leader’s role is to help ensure that those barriers and those potential exclusionary issues are addressed and that that is the focus is to try and make sure that that is something that is supported and lifted through the church. Is that right?
Leslie:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Another phrase that we can turn to coming for abundance, that we’re expected to live a life of abundance and personal alive, alive in all the different ways that we can be alive. Church as one of the holders, wisdom holders has a role to play again in terms of interpreting what that means day-to-day. What does that abundance mean and how do we celebrate that abundance but also make that abundance available? It has to do with access, access to abundance.
If we believe that the abundance is there and I do, then how do we help every one of us access that abundance and break down barriers and build ladders and lift people up, lift people up? Our job is to lift one another up.
Jenny:
That’s wonderful. Yes. This term abundance is so particularly important right now in these uncertain times. The thought of individualism being at a peak right now, people feeling isolated, not necessarily feeling in community with their, say their neighbours or their organizations. To me, that’s one of the main issues is this thought of competition and this thought of individualism and that can lead to less abundant thinking and rather scarcity thinking. It’s just so important to help people see that.
Leslie:
What happens when 5,000 people share what they have? There is enough if we know how to share and if we know what exactly the structures are that will promote that kind of sharing and that’s what we need. We need those ideas and values of sharing and the collaboration that sort of the other side of what you’re talking about, the individualism. In the West we learn from our historians and our philosophers that we have a very strong culture that emphasizes individual freedom and that’s a good thing. It was a good thing at its time given the context that it was developed in. But I really like the phrase that says, “You know what? Your freedom to swing your arms stops where my chin begins.” And I think it’s important for us all to think about not only our own s, but our collective chin and other people’s chins and how much more abundance we receive when we’re in it together, when we’re all in it together, again, trying to lift one another up as opposed to me trying to get to the top and climbing over whoever is there so we can accomplish so much more together collaboratively as a team, thinking more about in this group, whatever this group is, who’s in the best position right now, who has the resources, who has the energy, who has what’s needed to do what we can all see as needed for the group right now.
That’ll change day to day depending on what’s happening in each person’s environment and life. But if we think of ourselves collectively, all working for the collective good, then it’s a constant conversation and negotiation. “Am I in the best position to do this? Are you? And if you are, then great. I’m happy to let you do it. I can help you if you need my help. “Thinking that way instead of being in competition as you put it.
Jenny:
Yeah, that’s so great because I’ve thought of often sometimes it is better to relinquish that leadership role if somebody else is more knowledgeable or better suited, like you said, in terms of relationships or whatever that looks like. And you’re right, it is a constant check-in question. And I love that you underscored the idea of collective good and how that helps us feel. It’s that feeling of reward that you just don’t get from those individual opportunities I think the same as you do when you accomplish something as a team.
Bill:
Leaning back into the years that I was in the United Church, we had a minister who regularly just kept looking for other sources. It wasn’t only the Bible. It was that plus, plus, plus. And one of the things that she tapped into was just the ground level taking care of each other. I believe that was a fantastic thing for me to experience, that the leader of our United Church would regularly challenge us to think a different way, to accept different things. This plurality is just a lovely richness that adds to what people ... And so I don’t believe that it’s the job of the spiritual leaders to tell people what they should believe. It’s the job of the spiritual leaders to invite them to think fully, to think wholly, to think in small ways completely away from the easy way. It’s easy to love your neighbour if it’s the same person as you, but we are surrounded in this world by other people and the word other should be a keynote that we got to communicate to the other people, not to the people who are in our basket, if you want to call it that.
I believe that real hospitality is another message that I’ve heard before. There’s mystics in the Middle Ages that basically welcome people as innkeeper, take that as a model.
A real good innkeeper invites everyone into their place, feeds them all, clothes them all, takes interest in where they came from and that’s the way I see us. I think we’re in keepers saying how diversity helps the RCWP group that I’m in also takes a look at First Nations wisdom and First Nations attitudes. We’ve gone way beyond the territorial acknowledgements to think about this being the world that we’re sharing with people who have been here for 20,000 years and we have screwed up pretty badly and we still have the choice to get together, listen to each other, benefit from each other, and not just exploit each other.
Jenny:
Oh, that’s wonderful stuff. I had the opportunity to interview Harley Besting, who was an elder of the Piikani Nation. And the way he spoke to me, I feel like our conversation resonated for months afterwards. It wasn’t as if he answered my questions. It was more about having me think about what he was saying and leaving me with some stories that would linger rather than telling me directly the things that I was missing. I love this concept of real hospitality and being in keepers for people and not potentially shaping, I think is what you’re saying, people’s thoughts, but rather just being open to how people come to the same or different ways of seeing a similar issue. And yeah, I just love the concept of accepting, thinking differently and forcing ourselves to think of another way rather than just the comfortable way that we generally like to think about our issues.
Love it.
Samaya:
Well, I was talking with a colleague of mine the other day and at the end of the day, I think ultimately our job is to help people make meaning out of their lives. Right now we are living at a time of such polarisation and a sense of othering. It makes me curious about how is it that we are creating a world, creating a province, creating a city, creating a society where every single person is honoured for who they are, for their inherent worth and dignity, for just existing for being who they are. And those are the people I’m really wanting to reach out to to say, yes, you matter, you matter in this world, you matter in what happens. We are bombarded with a lot of misinformation. How do we help people make meaning of that? How do we help them stay true to who they are, the integrity of who they are and participate in our public life, in our public discourse?
We do live in an interdependent web and when one part of the web is hurting, we are all at risk. The web becomes weakened when one part of it is not as strong as it could be. To me, it’s how do we strengthen the ties that bind us together as human beings? And there’s a lot of room in that for so many different worldviews, many different religions, many different ways of being in the world and it is beautiful and complex all at the same time. When I went to seminary, it was always your job as a faith leader is to afflict the comforted and comfort the afflicted. And we’re constantly living in that tension of challenging the status quo so that we can become better as a society, so that we can become better as human beings as well as providing that comfort for people who are really suffering from how society is minimizing their worth and their dignity.
And so that’s the struggle.
Jenny:
I think of as a parent trying to make sure that your kids are living up to their full potential, but also not pushing them too hard. That’s why I talk about having that balance between support and helping people develop their ... I love hearing being better human beings, making meaning in this world where we are experiencing so much polarization and othering of each other. Yeah, I think that’s really such a great place. And I wonder, there must be practice in this with respect to holding that space for people being able to be in that tension.
Samaya:
Here at Calgary Unitarians where I get the privilege of serving these people and we’re having so much fun together in a lot of different ways, it’s just a delight to serve them. My biggest message for them has been always, do you have a spiritual practice? And if you do not have a spiritual practice, get one. I don’t care what it looks like. It could be a mantra as you were brushing your teeth. It could be as you are out there walking your dog, whatever it is that works for you. And somebody said, “Well, why, Reverend, do I need to do this? I’m a humanist. What is this thing that you are talking about? “ And I went, my answer was what we’re doing is we’re developing a spiritual muscle so that when things happen in the world, we don’t either freeze and stop action or react and make the situation much worse.
When we have the capacity and have developed the spiritual discipline of really focusing in on who I am as a being in this world, when we have that, we then open up a third response. It gives us that breathing space. We learn the techniques to slow down what is happening and respond in a way that acknowledges the flourishment and the betterment of us all. That’s been my biggest message for Calgary Unitarians. It would be my biggest message for anybody is, do you have a spiritual practice? What is it? What does it look like? Because that gives you the spiritual and emotional muscle to respond differently when events in the world are driving us to be filled with anxiety, to be fearful. It opens us up to a new way, a third way, which is a beautiful way.
Jenny:
Beautiful. Yeah, I think of the instinctual versus reactive versus gives you that opportunity for the responsive mindset. And when you say a spiritual practise, I’m going to say in anticipation of this discussion, I’ve been reflecting on potentially my lack of spiritual practice and I used to have, this is going to sound silly, but I used to have a gym class that we used to call our religion. We used to say- Absolutely. And when I think of the potential underlying reason for that label might be just that regular accountability to each other and that sense of belonging and the sense of accomplishment together. Is that a good way to ...
Samaya:
Absolutely. And I also want to throw in another ... When I worked with youth, because I was always talking about spirituality, I was like, okay, a lot of my youth, they played soccer. I said,
“When you are on the soccer pitch and you’re in that zone where it’s just you and the ball and the game and there’s no room for anything else, that’s a spiritual moment. You are in the flow.”
When I was rock climbing, that’s a spiritual ... There’s no room for anything else other than me and the rock and it is like that. How do we develop those practices? And it could be the gym, it could be anything along those lines. That’s why I say I don’t care what it is. It could be walking your dog. Some people actually, that is part of their spiritual practice. They’re out walking their dog morning and night. That is a reset for them throughout their day to sort of, who am I in this moment? What have I got left to do? How do I want to be for the rest of my day? It pulls us into that capital S self of who we are. It connects us with that capital S self. Some people call it that, some people God, some people spirit, whatever your name is for it, it connects us with that and it helps us to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves and that sense of belonging is something that we all hunger for because we’re not coming from place of fear or anxiety or anything along those lines.
We actually come from a place that is true to our hearts and an integrous place.
John:
And we’re living in a very challenging time. We came out of COVID not long ago and are in some ways still learning what do we learn both the positive and negative of that pandemic that affected all of us. And that was challenging for many people to then have the challenge of the United States and what’s gone on in our relationship with the United States and its place in the world. That’s a challenge economically and emotionally, I would say. What is the role? I mean, I think we need to be an oasis in a world of conflict and division. That doesn’t mean we stick our heads in the stands. It actually means that we encourage people to know they’re not alone
In this challenging time. I think we need to encourage people to understand that in Christianity, the Jesus that is presented in the gospel is one that’s about peace and inclusion and welcoming of the other. Jesus clearly takes the 613 commandments of the Hebrew Bible down into the trend that become the 10 commandments into the sermon on the mount, which is the attitudes that call about the blessedness of those who more and blessed or the peacemakers, blessed are the meek, et cetera. The philosophy and essence of Jesus gets set up when he gets asked, “What’s the greatest commandment?” And he just clearly says, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, your mind, and your neighbour as yourself.” And I underline the word neighbour as yourself because a lot of what is being preached is division and hate and judgement and clearly those are all things Jesus was again.
It’s a challenge for leaders, but they have to also say to themselves and look themselves in the mirror, which Jesus am I preaching the one that reflects the ideas I have or the ones that reflect Jesus’ vision for the world. It’s a challenging time, but I’ve been doing this 38 years, it’s never mattered more. I’ll say that again…
I’ve been doing this 38 years and it’s never mattered more because we are called to be speaking up and out so that passion is lived in the world.
I think the world yearns for good Christian religion to be spoken and preached and taught and it’s up to us to ensure that we are having people familiar with the Bible, not just saying, “Oh, that’s what it says without actually reading it or speaking to it. “ It’s calling us up and out. Interestingly enough, the word blessed is not a passive word. It means get up, get up and speak out is not just a political thing. It is a compassionate way to encourage people to embrace the world and all of its diversity, which frankly is a gift.
Jenny:
Wow, thank you so much calling us up and out. I’m assuming up from our our seats, let’s say, up from just potentially being…
John:
You know what, COVID kept people indoors and there’s lots still indoors. I think we have to get off our couches and say this matters. My biggest concern right now as I think about the separatist movement in our province is that people are saying, “Oh, it’s just going to go away or it’s not important or we don’t believe in that. “ Well, I think we have to get up and out and say, “Yes, we love our country. We’re part of this country and let people know that have a very small, narrow, non-historical view of the Confederation to speak up and out about this. “ This is really important that we engage with others, not to beat them up, but to help understand and educate each other about the gift of this country and our place, in it,
Jenny:
Incredible. And I could not agree with you more. We absolutely need to take this separatist movement seriously. You spoke earlier about what’s happening in the United States and I will say the clear coordination between the United States and the separatist movement, it is not something to be taken lately. As you said, I loved that you underscored 38 years. There’s never been a more important time. I could not agree more. I’ve been living my adult life since 2000 and really feeling like it’s now or never to uphold the things that we want to see for Canada and for our communities. Last question for you. Okay. Last question for you, Leslie is, and this is about, again, appreciating that faith leaders or spiritual leaders have a very important role to play in terms of helping the social and environmental justice movement more broadly.
How do you or your organization, how do you ensure that you are supporting those efforts or getting involved in those efforts, let’s say?
Jenny (00:55:49):
Thank you.
Leslie:
I think the faith leaders stay in touch just by virtue of their own networks. Many of our faith leaders of all different kinds are connected to groups that are thinking about and acting in social justice kinds of ways. Our faith leaders are already connected to those people. They make those opportunities known to us. If there’s a campaign, a letter writing campaign, we write a letter. We write a letter as a group. The Lethbridge Inclusive Catholic Community Fellowship has already done that with regard, we’ve written a letter to our government representatives expressing some of our concerns about proposed recent legislation. We can do that. We can attend if we know that there’s a rally and a protest, a gathering that’s in support of things that we believe in. We can go to those. I mean, I think it’s important generally that we’re not just armchair cheer.
I think we have to be out there. We have to be doing something. We have to have action and those faith leaders because of the people they know and the networks they move in and the congregants too. I mean, all of us have our own networks and our own ... We watch podcasts, we find out about things and so we can each act in our own little community as well as participate in the big ones.
Jenny:
Wonderful. Yeah. This letter is a perfect example of an action that you guys took together collectively. That’s really great to hear that you’ve written letters with respect to policy and things like that and that yes, I think it is just a matter of connecting and having those relationships and listening when your members or others from the public could bring something forward and assessing whether you support it and put boots on the ground. As you say, it’s just so important for people to see these places being represented and understand that it is a place that we can go to when we are concerned about something deeply.
Samaya:
You can check out our website, CalgaryUnitarians.ca. You can also reach out to me as the minister, minister@calgaryunitarians.ca. I won’t give you my phone number, but email will work just fine. I’m pretty responsive. We will be at the rally on May the 29th. We’re going to be there with Calgary Alliance for the Common Good because we’re a founding member of CACG. And please come out and come to the rally, come find us. We’ll be there with our Calgary Unitarians banner and email me. I would love to hear from people.
Jenny:
Wonderful.
John:
I think we have to encourage people that it matters if they show up. I think that’s the one sort of all I would say for all people if they’re able to be there and to lend their voice and support to say these things matter. I am working within the United Church of Canada to say that we are the United Church for Canada, not just of Canada. The United Church people will be hopefully present to let that be known.
It’s a matter of engagement. Politics is got such a bad reputation, but it used to be something of service for the common good. The word politics means polish, which is the affairs of the city. So everything’s political. The coffee drink, the car you drive, the lawn fertiliser, everything is political. So let’s not say it’s a bad thing and keep it separate. Let’s say what is this call Helping us too. And so my hope is that we encourage people to see a bigger picture and a more loving and compassionate feel themselves and their place in the world. So it’s got to be done with love and joy and not hate and fear.
Jenny:
Love that.
Bill:
I believe that we start out with understanding that there’s two really strong motivations in human life. One of them being love and the other one being fear. I believe that if we get down to the roots of love, then we are going to try to embrace other people. We’re going to try to get out of our comfort zone because we know that we’re being invited to do that as opposed to an atmosphere of fear where you say, “Well, I kind of understand this group’s point of view, but I really don’t understand these other guys because they’re really out there.” By starting out with what we have in common and working together on what we know is our root values, we’re going to get on the right track. And I guess we just have to keep telling ourselves we aren’t in search of the answer that we’re going to publish to everybody else.
We’re actually walking down the same road with a lot of different people. We’re looking for guidance and we get guidance. Yeah, we get guidance divinely. I meditate. I’m very quiet and I know that that helps my prayer life, if you want to call it my prayer life. We keep walking the good road. This is another message that comes from the First Nations version of the New Testament, which is another source. It’s reading the same Bible except it’s reading it through the eyes of the people who have been here for all these years on Turtle Island. And it’s lovely. It’s lovely to think about it in an open way and then you get down to the message first and then you backtrack to, okay, this is how it applies. The other thing that is really key to me after having seen Buddhism in Thailand and seeing Islam in Turkey, let’s get past what we’re different about and let’s take a look at what we do for each other.
What is it that our group does to help people who are disadvantaged? How do we equalize a very unequal world? And you know what? It’s not an enormous task that we can’t do. It’s something that we can make choices in our little zone and just watch the ripples go out from there.
Jenny:
Coming in with that expectation of how do we equalize a very unequal world is a really powerful place to come from. And understanding that it’s our care for each other that ultimately is how we should be measured.
Bill:
Two messages that mean a lot to me right now. And one of them is connection. I want to see connections between me and my grandson and me and the wacko guy who lives down the block from me because I can choose to build those connections. I don’t have to ignore them. I don’t have to say it’s too tough for me to do. The other message that I’ve kind of gathered in this journey lately is the idea that there is plenty for us. We have enough of a world we can make this world work without saying there’s going to be winners and losers because there is enough. Enough is one of the key words that I try to start with every day. I actually got it tattooed to my arm that I won’t show you, but yeah. That’s
Jenny:
Incredible. I love it because yes, this idea of scarcity and that we’re somehow in competition for everything when there is enough is such a beautiful message to leave with. Thank you, Bill. This has been wonderful. I’m so glad we had a chance to connect and I hope we have an opportunity again in the future.
Bill:
It’s been a pleasure. Thanks for asking.
Jenny:
You talked about our interconnectedness. The way I was describing it offline was these pillars of society and just understanding that faith, that spirituality is a pillar of a healthy society and for us to be making sure we look to leaders in this space and understanding that there are really meaningful ways to move us forward if we slow down and just think about how we can include each other’s perspectives.
Samaya:
Have a spiritual practice.
Jenny:
Yes. I heard that too. Thank you so much.
Leslie:
Thank you, Jenny.
Jenny:
Thank you so much, Leslie. I am so appreciative of your time. Lethbridge, I find has a very strong and healthy faith community, let’s say. It’s really nice to have an opportunity to speak to you and to hear more about what you’re doing.
Leslie:
Thank you so much, Jenny. I really appreciate the opportunity. All the best to you.
Bonus questions: what do you suggest people do to help regain a sense of community?
Jenny (01:05:30):
I’m going to ask one extra practical question of you just because you raised it earlier. A common concern I have, and I know others do too, is around, like you said, our neighbours, us being divided. I’ll be specific. My neighbour had flags out of many kinds that were hateful. We’ve lost relationship with them. Or what do you suggest people do to help regain a sense of community?
John:
Well, what I say to my community is this, you begin with the phrase, “Help me understand.” The phrase, your neighbours, help me understand why you want these particular flags up. Help me understand what’s driving this. It is an engagement to have people articulate why they’re feeling the way they are. That’s step number one, I think. The second is you’re going to have a flag that you can fly too. It begins with conversation. It will probably end with disagreement, but hopefully it’s done respectfully. And I know that. I mean, I flew a Canadian flag in my house last year. I’m going to get it out again. It never happened in my lifetime.
Jenny:
Right, me too.
John:
The tragedy in this is I’ve never had to defend why I live in Canada to other Canadians. Easy.
Jenny:
Absolutely.
John:
If you want to know who really gets this, talk to an Uber driver. They’ll tell you what’s like to live in a place that is not safe where governments have influenced in a negative way. It’s really asking people to pay attention and I encourage people to do that.
Jenny:
Wonderful.
John:
Thanks so much.
Jenny:
Yeah. Thank you. Take care for now.
